Broadwell's i7-5557U GPU is pretty damn close to a 192-core GCN GPU but nowhere near a 384+ core GCN GPU such as that in the A10. But it's also 1/4th the TDP, so half the GPU performance and 20% more CPU performance is all well unless you actually plan to game (at low res) on the thing because lets be honest here, both GPU's are unacceptable for HD gaming.
It's also worth pointing out the Intel GPU is substantially more advanced regarding features and modern codec support.
I presumed he was pointing out that if you are using a bigger chassis then it is easy to get a faster system. Your system is 192 x 210 x 62 (2.5l) this is 142 x 62 x 107 (0.95l)
I have an i7-4790T in an Akasa Euler case; I believe it's around the size of the M350, similar price too (at least here in the UK) but a fully aluminium case designed as a heat-sink. The 4790T is 45W, but runs extremely well in the case; running a 1080p encode in Handbrake it can hold 750% CPU use (where all 8 threads is 800%) at a speed of 3ghz, even though it's normal operating speed is 2.7ghz.
The only issue with this setup is that mSATA drives are out, as too much heat builds up in the case; I had to swap for a regular 2.5" SSD, and I did put a tiny 40mm Noctua fan in just to help clear the heat build up under heavy load (during normal use it switches off completely).
I'm not aware of any Broadwell compatible thin mini-ITX boards yet, but I imagine doing the same again with Broadwell could achieve even better results.
It does make me wonder why so many of these boxes have such anaemic CPU options, as it's clearly possible to put fairly powerful CPUs in. In fact, my (mostly) passive system replaced a 2008 dual quad-core Mac Pro, and outperforms it in almost every metric in such a tiny system. No ECC of course, but otherwise it's a pretty big (or small) change.
One of the reasons industrial PCs have lower powered CPUs is not only for thermal reasons but in order to have an industrial control panel be UL 508 approved any PC inside of it needs to be powered by a class 2 DC power supply. That is a power supply that cannot supply more than 100 watts.
I might be able to use this as an OIT or a small SCADA system, but you are correct. Right now, I am selling our existing customers a whitebox computer with our software loaded on it. I need a minimum of two serial ports and PS/2 ports (the keyboard and trackpad are integrated into the machine cabinet).
Just buy a couple USB to Serial adapters since you wont be needing the ports for mouse and keyboard. Even if you needed them, you could get small and compact un-powered usb hub
Darek here from Logic Supply. The ML100G-30 features an optional COM port punch-out on the front of the system and is available as a drop-down during configuration. Due to its size, VGA is not currently available on the NUC form factor from our motherboard manufacturers.
I've worked with Logic Supply to buy high-reliability systems and have found that most of their models are very flexible and can accommodate serial ports, VGA, DVI, etc. by using their system builder form. I keep wanting to buy something like this for an HTPC, but with 4K HEVC support being unknown and the price being rather higher than fan-cooled models, it is hard to justify yet. :/
Given that NUC is an Intel branded product, I'd think seeing AMD in a NUC unlikely. You can get a Brix from Gigabyte that supports AMD options, or the Sapphire Edge. These have done alright, but nothing extraordinary, due to equivalent pricing, but less than equivalent performance. Still functional, but not a great value proposition.
What is the most ironic is that this 365/24/7 unit does not come with secondary/redundant ethernet port in case the one fails. I am of the opinion that at least two ports should be on every motherboards from 120$ miniPCs and 70$ motherboards to this one. Some may disagree about that but nobody can disagree about 2 ports in industrial grade NUC. As for HTPC, you have two mDP ports and that is sufficient. If monitor manufacturers do not want to implement future (proof) standard it is their own mistake. And this is not a barebone because you cannot order it without memory stick.
Darek here from Logic Supply. One of the other models in the ML100 Series, the ML100G-10 (http://www.logicsupply.com/ml100g-10/) does offer Dual LAN. We're also exploring other emerging motherboard options to enable additional dual NIC models.
Darek, thanks for clarifying. When researching to buy Industrial PCs, it seems you have to dig to find options with dual NICs and is not readily available (findable) on most manufacture's sites.
"What is the most ironic is that this 365/24/7 unit does not come with secondary/redundant ethernet port in case the one fails" The dual nic isn't in case one of the nics fail on the device, but in case one of the >>Switches<< fails (or needs to be rebooted/serviced/etc). If a NIC dies on the board, the other one will likely be affected too (since they usually would use the same NIC controller and work like a dual-port add-in NIC).
1. When a manufacturer comes onto the forum, with all the potential to be flamed, I believe they should be complimented and encourage. So well done Logic supply
2. If the model has a mini DP port, surely a simple miniDP to HDMI adapter would be sufficient to allow it to run as an HTPC.
To be fair to Logic Supply HTPC use is not the market (I think) of the model they supplied. Tranquil PC make nice (but pricey) fanless cases for HTPC use
Why would you use and industrial computer for a HTPC. Do you just have too much money? That is the only case I can think of. A regular NUC would be much more appropriate for a HTPC. I have one in that very role now. It is the 4th gen i5 model running a 250GB m.2 drive for xmbc and pulls all media files from the network. Without a actual disk needing to turn inside the enclosure it self, it stays extremely cool. The bios are set by default to only cue the fan when needed and running with 16gb DDR3 1600, displaying dual full HDX I am yet to see the fan be cued. The frame of the case being solid metal you can feel that there is nearly no heat to speak of when you hold your hand to it.
That being said this is not the application I would ever look at one of the Logic Supply units for. Why would I pay twice as much to get a industrial one for home use when the consumer one fits the bill better anyway since it has built in IR receiver for a remote?
The Logic Supply models do make sense for the application they were intended for. As far as all of you saying that it doesn't have serial and it doesn't have this or that. It has all the interface ports needed for you to be able to adapt it to any application that this "should" be used for. I find it despicable that serial ports are so prevalent in automation. We are the technology side of industry so lets get with the times. I am glad they didn't waste interface real-estate with a dedicated serial port! As far a redundant network connections, your complaint is ridiculous as most automation controllers and proprietary HMI's don't even have redundant network connections. It does have built in Wi-Fi antenna sockets so you could always utilize that if necessary or use a USB to Ethernet adapter. This may industrial rated but it is not allowable as a safety controller and I can not imagine what other process you have that is so critical that you planning on this unit running as the backbone of a critical system. Perhaps you have not appropriately though out your process before you started specking hardware for install.
Giada F300 is a similar unit to the above, been using as a HTPC for over a year, totally silent and very solid unit.
Model Giada F300 OS Windows®7,8 & Linux Processor Intel® Core™ i5-4200U Processor, 2 Cores / 4 Threads Chipset Integrated into CPU Display Intel®HD Graphics 4400 Microsoft®DirectX®11 Memory Not included One SO-DIMM slot, up to 16GB of DDR3L 1600 MHz HDD Not included Support 2.5inch SATA Ⅲ or SATA Ⅱ Type HDD Wireless Not included, optional IEEE 802.11 b/g/n module LAN 1x Realtek®Gigabit Ethernet Controller 1x Rj45 port on the back pane Audio Realtek®High Definition Audio (5.1) Digital audio via DisplayPort 1.2 connector 1x Audio out &S/PDIF combo jack on the front panel 1x Mic in jack on the front pane Interface 4x USB3.0 (two on the back panel) 2x USB2.0 (on the back panel) 2x COM Port (one on the back panel) 1x DC-IN jack (19V /12V ) IR An infrared sensor on the front panel 1x 3.5mm audio jack for extended infrared sensor Not included Remote Control(Optional ) Size 10.3in x 6.9in x 1.4in 260mm x 175mm x 35mm Color Black
These mini PCs all have one huge flaw: Not enough USB Ports. And if you want stability and reliability youre not going to start with USB hubs. Period. I rather build an ITX system that wont be much bigger (actually much flatter), has far more power (up to i7) more storage, more RAM and over 3 times as many USB ports.
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Pissedoffyouth - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
I have a build based on an Minibox M350 - designed for passive heatsinks or CPU's with fan and <65w TDP.With an A10-7800 it completely smokes these little boxes at a similar size, and for less money.
I'd love to see a NUC with an AMD APU and some decent cooling design
damianrobertjones - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
I have an i7 quad machine that smokes your M350 machine. It's bigger than the Minibox but, then again, your minibox is bigger than the above Nuc.nathanddrews - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
Oh yeah? Well epeen, epeen, epeen!TheinsanegamerN - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
And my desktop smashes both of yours put together. Do I win?Pissedoffyouth - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
Smokes it? What i7? I bet its GPU is worseSamus - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
Broadwell's i7-5557U GPU is pretty damn close to a 192-core GCN GPU but nowhere near a 384+ core GCN GPU such as that in the A10. But it's also 1/4th the TDP, so half the GPU performance and 20% more CPU performance is all well unless you actually plan to game (at low res) on the thing because lets be honest here, both GPU's are unacceptable for HD gaming.It's also worth pointing out the Intel GPU is substantially more advanced regarding features and modern codec support.
blue_urban_sky - Thursday, April 30, 2015 - link
I presumed he was pointing out that if you are using a bigger chassis then it is easy to get a faster system. Your system is 192 x 210 x 62 (2.5l) this is 142 x 62 x 107 (0.95l)Haravikk - Thursday, April 30, 2015 - link
I have an i7-4790T in an Akasa Euler case; I believe it's around the size of the M350, similar price too (at least here in the UK) but a fully aluminium case designed as a heat-sink. The 4790T is 45W, but runs extremely well in the case; running a 1080p encode in Handbrake it can hold 750% CPU use (where all 8 threads is 800%) at a speed of 3ghz, even though it's normal operating speed is 2.7ghz.The only issue with this setup is that mSATA drives are out, as too much heat builds up in the case; I had to swap for a regular 2.5" SSD, and I did put a tiny 40mm Noctua fan in just to help clear the heat build up under heavy load (during normal use it switches off completely).
I'm not aware of any Broadwell compatible thin mini-ITX boards yet, but I imagine doing the same again with Broadwell could achieve even better results.
It does make me wonder why so many of these boxes have such anaemic CPU options, as it's clearly possible to put fairly powerful CPUs in. In fact, my (mostly) passive system replaced a 2008 dual quad-core Mac Pro, and outperforms it in almost every metric in such a tiny system. No ECC of course, but otherwise it's a pretty big (or small) change.
Pissedoffyouth - Thursday, April 30, 2015 - link
That does look like a pretty decent casenatenu - Sunday, May 10, 2015 - link
One of the reasons industrial PCs have lower powered CPUs is not only for thermal reasons but in order to have an industrial control panel be UL 508 approved any PC inside of it needs to be powered by a class 2 DC power supply. That is a power supply that cannot supply more than 100 watts.Beaver M. - Saturday, May 2, 2015 - link
Yeah well, I have an i7 in that same M350. You were saying?meacupla - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
Industrial PC, must continue to work in a pile of dust and metal shavings.But this model is lacking VGA and serial, so IDK how industrial it is...
eBob - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
I might be able to use this as an OIT or a small SCADA system, but you are correct. Right now, I am selling our existing customers a whitebox computer with our software loaded on it. I need a minimum of two serial ports and PS/2 ports (the keyboard and trackpad are integrated into the machine cabinet).Morawka - Friday, May 8, 2015 - link
Just buy a couple USB to Serial adapters since you wont be needing the ports for mouse and keyboard. Even if you needed them, you could get small and compact un-powered usb hubDarekLogic - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
Darek here from Logic Supply. The ML100G-30 features an optional COM port punch-out on the front of the system and is available as a drop-down during configuration. Due to its size, VGA is not currently available on the NUC form factor from our motherboard manufacturers.Sivar - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
I've worked with Logic Supply to buy high-reliability systems and have found that most of their models are very flexible and can accommodate serial ports, VGA, DVI, etc. by using their system builder form.I keep wanting to buy something like this for an HTPC, but with 4K HEVC support being unknown and the price being rather higher than fan-cooled models, it is hard to justify yet. :/
joex4444 - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
DP -> VGA adapters exist and should be OK. In many industrial settings, these run headless anyways.Michael Bay - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
>current AMD smoking anything everTry again.
Pissedoffyouth - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
Uh its graphics are top notchAmmaross - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
We'll have to keep that in mind when the SCADA system has to play World of Warcraft between jobs...Flunk - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
Sometimes, but not now. Right now they're second notch.Jorgisven - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
Given that NUC is an Intel branded product, I'd think seeing AMD in a NUC unlikely. You can get a Brix from Gigabyte that supports AMD options, or the Sapphire Edge. These have done alright, but nothing extraordinary, due to equivalent pricing, but less than equivalent performance. Still functional, but not a great value proposition.der - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
noiceUplink10 - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
What is the most ironic is that this 365/24/7 unit does not come with secondary/redundant ethernet port in case the one fails. I am of the opinion that at least two ports should be on every motherboards from 120$ miniPCs and 70$ motherboards to this one. Some may disagree about that but nobody can disagree about 2 ports in industrial grade NUC.As for HTPC, you have two mDP ports and that is sufficient. If monitor manufacturers do not want to implement future (proof) standard it is their own mistake.
And this is not a barebone because you cannot order it without memory stick.
DarekLogic - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
Darek here from Logic Supply. One of the other models in the ML100 Series, the ML100G-10 (http://www.logicsupply.com/ml100g-10/) does offer Dual LAN. We're also exploring other emerging motherboard options to enable additional dual NIC models.Ammaross - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
Darek, thanks for clarifying. When researching to buy Industrial PCs, it seems you have to dig to find options with dual NICs and is not readily available (findable) on most manufacture's sites.Ammaross - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
Unfortunately, the ML100G-10 is only Bay Trail, and thus not the most ideal solution. :(Uplink10 - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
I like hearing that because dual NIC models are wanted and second one can enable a secondary route in case the first one fails.Ammaross - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
"What is the most ironic is that this 365/24/7 unit does not come with secondary/redundant ethernet port in case the one fails"The dual nic isn't in case one of the nics fail on the device, but in case one of the >>Switches<< fails (or needs to be rebooted/serviced/etc). If a NIC dies on the board, the other one will likely be affected too (since they usually would use the same NIC controller and work like a dual-port add-in NIC).
cjs150 - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
Two points;1. When a manufacturer comes onto the forum, with all the potential to be flamed, I believe they should be complimented and encourage. So well done Logic supply
2. If the model has a mini DP port, surely a simple miniDP to HDMI adapter would be sufficient to allow it to run as an HTPC.
To be fair to Logic Supply HTPC use is not the market (I think) of the model they supplied. Tranquil PC make nice (but pricey) fanless cases for HTPC use
Ammaross - Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - link
"Logic Supply HTPC use is not the market (I think) of the model they supplied."You must have missed the term "Industrial" in the title of the review....
mtnman81 - Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - link
Why would you use and industrial computer for a HTPC. Do you just have too much money? That is the only case I can think of. A regular NUC would be much more appropriate for a HTPC. I have one in that very role now. It is the 4th gen i5 model running a 250GB m.2 drive for xmbc and pulls all media files from the network. Without a actual disk needing to turn inside the enclosure it self, it stays extremely cool. The bios are set by default to only cue the fan when needed and running with 16gb DDR3 1600, displaying dual full HDX I am yet to see the fan be cued. The frame of the case being solid metal you can feel that there is nearly no heat to speak of when you hold your hand to it.That being said this is not the application I would ever look at one of the Logic Supply units for. Why would I pay twice as much to get a industrial one for home use when the consumer one fits the bill better anyway since it has built in IR receiver for a remote?
The Logic Supply models do make sense for the application they were intended for. As far as all of you saying that it doesn't have serial and it doesn't have this or that. It has all the interface ports needed for you to be able to adapt it to any application that this "should" be used for. I find it despicable that serial ports are so prevalent in automation. We are the technology side of industry so lets get with the times. I am glad they didn't waste interface real-estate with a dedicated serial port! As far a redundant network connections, your complaint is ridiculous as most automation controllers and proprietary HMI's don't even have redundant network connections. It does have built in Wi-Fi antenna sockets so you could always utilize that if necessary or use a USB to Ethernet adapter. This may industrial rated but it is not allowable as a safety controller and I can not imagine what other process you have that is so critical that you planning on this unit running as the backbone of a critical system. Perhaps you have not appropriately though out your process before you started specking hardware for install.
pekpetrolhead - Thursday, April 30, 2015 - link
Giada F300 is a similar unit to the above, been using as a HTPC for over a year, totally silent and very solid unit.Model
Giada F300
OS
Windows®7,8 & Linux
Processor
Intel® Core™ i5-4200U Processor, 2 Cores / 4 Threads
Chipset
Integrated into CPU
Display
Intel®HD Graphics 4400
Microsoft®DirectX®11
Memory
Not included
One SO-DIMM slot, up to 16GB of DDR3L 1600 MHz
HDD
Not included
Support 2.5inch SATA Ⅲ or SATA Ⅱ Type HDD
Wireless
Not included, optional IEEE 802.11 b/g/n module
LAN
1x Realtek®Gigabit Ethernet Controller
1x Rj45 port on the back pane
Audio
Realtek®High Definition Audio
(5.1) Digital audio via DisplayPort 1.2 connector
1x Audio out &S/PDIF combo jack on the front panel
1x Mic in jack on the front pane
Interface
4x USB3.0 (two on the back panel)
2x USB2.0 (on the back panel)
2x COM Port (one on the back panel)
1x DC-IN jack (19V /12V )
IR
An infrared sensor on the front panel
1x 3.5mm audio jack for extended infrared sensor
Not included Remote Control(Optional )
Size
10.3in x 6.9in x 1.4in
260mm x 175mm x 35mm
Color
Black
Beaver M. - Saturday, May 2, 2015 - link
These mini PCs all have one huge flaw: Not enough USB Ports. And if you want stability and reliability youre not going to start with USB hubs. Period.I rather build an ITX system that wont be much bigger (actually much flatter), has far more power (up to i7) more storage, more RAM and over 3 times as many USB ports.